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Saturday 28 January 2012

Popping the question: the space between words - the Referendum question - or questions?

I have had this little 48 second clip up since the 15th of January, but kept it private on YouTube because I still don’t know what to make of it. 



 

Let’s examine the exchange verbatim - questions put, questions answered. Or are they?

Isabel Fraser: So. Are the politicians letting us down this week? Is party politics taking too much of a role when they should be looking at the wider interests of Scotland, do you think?

Question type and the formulation of questions - meat and drink to a negotiator like me - are all the rage this week, so let’s analyse this one, or rather these ones, since Isabel Fraser poses three questions in her statement, albeit within a single theme -

Are politicians letting us down this week?

Is party politics taking to much of a role?

when

they should be looking at the wider interests of Scotland?

The first is a closed question demanding a YES/NO answer, as is the second, and the third is technically a statement of fact that assumes a YES to the first two and offer an value judgment of what politicians should be doing, or invites a NO to the first two which implies a YES to the third proposition, which is in fact also a question.

Before I analyse further, here’s how I would have answered Isabel’s deceptively simple, but in fact complex bundle of questions. Bear with me in a lengthy digression - I have never been know to use a short word when a long one will do, or choose brevity over a prolix mode, except under duress on Twitter …

PC:No, they are not letting us down, because it is impossible to separate party politics from the wider interests of Scotland. We live in a democracy, the interests of the people in that democracy are served by elected politicians who operate mainly within a frame of party, and it is the primary role of politicians in that democracy, whether in government or in opposition, to attempt to serve the interests of all of the people within the context of their party policies and beliefs.

There is no objective body that stands apart from party politics that has a greater right to speak or decide. Churches, civic leaders, business and commercial leaders are not apolitical - they act within a frame of belief and self-interest, and are also in the main, politically aligned as well.

Bodies such as Civic Scotland are political groupings - they have a viewpoint, they are comprised of people who in the main have party political views and who voted according to them in democratic elections. Their voice can therefore only be advisory - it cannot be democratic, and they have no right to compel political decision.

There is of course, the Law, which in theory stands outside of, and above party politics. A brief look at the composition of either the Westminster Parliament or Holyrood immediately demonstrates that, while the concept of the rule of law and the processes of the law should be free of influence, the lawyers themselves are not - they are in fact highly politicised.

The Advocate General of Scotland, Lord Wallace demonstrated this in the BBC debate this week. He is a former politician, now an unelected Lord: he is a political appointee representing the Crown: he therefore technically represented the Queen, but in reality the Tory/LibDem Coalition, and was in practice in the debate aligned with the Labour/Tory/LibDem coalition formed to fight against the independence of Scotland and to secure a NO vote in the referendum.”

(If you doubt that the law is politicised, consider this - Tommy Sheridan is being released from prison this week after serving a year of his sentence. Sheridan, one of the most charismatic campaigning politicians Scotland has ever seen, will not be allowed to speak in public after his release. He is, of course, a committed advocate of Scotland’s independence, and an opponent of the nuclear deterrent. Many, including me, saw his prosecution for perjury as a political prosecution, and many will see the ban on him engaging in political activity at this crucial point in his country’s history as a gagging stratagem. A legal justification for the gag has of course been presented and can be defended under the law.)

Isabel may be forgiven for breathing a sigh of relief that she didn’t have me on the programme instead of the admirable Joyce McMillan. But here we have the essence of the problem - television, limited by format and by timescale, can rarely do justice to such questions and concepts, even assuming their panellists understand them in the first place. Brevity, concise exchanges and ten minute exchange slots are what television is about, except in rare instances.

Of course, in reality, I would have given a briefer answer -

No they’re not letting us down. This is about party politics and the electorate want the politicians to fight the corners they elected them to fight. Other individuals and bodies can advise, but that’s all - if they want to do more than advise, let them stand for election and run for office.”

WHAT DID JOYCE SAY? AND WHAT DID ISABEL DO NEXT?

Joyce McMillan: Well, I think - just to put it bluntly - I think no one who really cares about the future of Scotland could want to keep the devolution max or the devolution plus option off the ballot paper.

Oh, really, Joyce. So anybody who doesn’t agree with you doesn’t care about Scotland? There are many who do care deeply about Scotland who seem to want to do just that. I’m not one of them - I want a single question because I think the devolution max question is a trap for nationalists, but as a democrat, I agree with you, with great reluctance, and I have offered a ballot paper which covers all reasonable bases, an analysis to support it, to which no one has paid a blind bit of notice. Anyway

Joyce McMillan: It’s quite clear that that’s the kind of option that most Scottish voters would feel, or the largest minority of Scottish voters, would feel most comfortable with - at the moment.

Isabel Fraser: Should it be a direct independence versus devo max question?

Joyce McMillan: No - absolutely not.

Now that answer is crystal clear - it should not be a direct independence versus devo max question. Or is it?

Joyce McMillan: It should be a question which allows people who want to opt for independence to opt for independence - and then, for those who have not opted for independence to say - well, what short of independence, would you like to open negotiations for devo max.

Joyce McMillan has just confirmed a YES to Isabel Fraser’s question, in spite saying absolutely not to it initially. Since a YES answer to any referendum question is a mandate to the Scottish Government to open negotiations for that choice, what Joyce has just said is that there should be two question, and if you say NO to independence, you also - or is it then - get a devo max choice, in which case it is “a direct independence versus devo max question”.

The confusion arise because not enough consideration is being given to the sequence and structure of the ballot paper and whether there should be conditionality between questions. I have addressed this at length, and doubtless tediously for those who don’t want to come to grips with the complexity that lies beneath apparent simplicity of any ballot paper. I have offered a ballot paper recently that I think covers all the reasonable bases, except the atavistic Tam Dalyell/Michael Forsyth option of reverting to a pre-devolution Scotland.

I am rather giving up hope than anyone will read or listen until the merde hits the fan, which it is already beginning to . If a 48 second exchange requires this kind of analysis, God Save Scotland - or Somebody Save Scotland …

MY BALLOT PAPER as posted earlier in the week

CONSULTATIVE REFERENDUM

Answer only one question - tick only one box.

If you answer more than one question, your ballot paper will be null and void. CHOOSE ONLY ONE OPTION - GIVE ONLY ONE ANSWER

I want a fully independent, sovereign Scotland.

I want Scotland to remain in the UK with no increased in current devolved powers to Scotland.

I want Scotland to remain in the UK with some additional powers devolved to Scotland.

I want Scotland to remain in the UK with all powers devolved to Scotland except defence and foreign policy.

N.B. If you have answered more than one question, i.e. ticked more than one box, your ballot paper will be null and void.

________________________________________

COMMENT

A minority, presumably led by Lord Forsyth, may call for a fifth question - a reversion to pre-devolution status. I believe there is no evidence for other than a tiny Tory minority asking for such an option, and that it therefore should not be offered. (A caller on Call Kaye this morning asked for just that!)

Some nationalists - how many  I do not know - might want devo max as a fifth fall-back question if independence fails. I do not believe such an option should be offered, because it would require a transferable vote option.

Is it too complex? I do not believe it is. There are no gradations of independence - independence delivers devo max and negates the other options. The last three questions are all the reasonable options for those who do not want independence.

Some might argue for a YES/NO on independence, but that again would require a conditionality clause, and answering more than one question, e.g

If you say YES to independence, do not answer any other questions. If you say NO to independence, choose one, and only one of the following two options

I want Scotland to remain in the UK with some additional powers devolved to Scotland.

I want Scotland to remain in the UK with all powers devolved to Scotland except defence and foreign policy.

This is too complex and confusing, in my view, especially since the first question, the independence question would be a YES/NO, but the other two would be box tick answers.

Doubtless, some will argue over the sequencing of questions, i.e. the order they are set out on the ballot paper. Since it is a referendum with the overarching theme of independence, I believe the order I have set out is reasonable.

 

16 comments:

  1. Thank you Peter, that is an interesting post. I agree that as with so many of these exchanges, you're left tearing your hair out because what the interviewee says is seldom an actual answer to the question asked. I don't think this is necessarily deliberate evasiveness, as the interviewee having something in his mind he wants to say, and simply saying it.

    Joyce McMillan has never been known for her clarity of thought, let's face it. But I'm not wholly convinced by your proposal either.

    You offer a menu-style ballot, with four options. Pick one only. This is more or less FPTP, isn't it? And as with all FPTP votes, wide open to tactical voting. I passionately desire independence, but suppose I'm not confident that has a good chance. Do I go for it anyway, or would my vote be better used in supporting the devo-max option? I think I'd have a nervous breakdown in the polling booth. You're also risking splitting the vote so much that nothing is going to come out as a clear winner.

    I would also take issue with your sliding scale of degrees of devolution. I think it's micromanaging, when in fact we'll get the amount of devolution Westminster is prepared to give us. Maybe that's what we already have - I suspect it may be, when I see the string of wrecking amendments proposed by Westminster to the Calman Act. In fact, I think Westminster as a body now realises that devolution is the very epitome of a slippery slope, and the only way to halt the slide is to stick in the crampons and yield no more.

    Nevertheless, I suppose it's open to the Scottish government to ask if the voters want it to open negotiations for further devolution. Might as well go for devo-max, because that way you might get something - control over airguns, maybe? They have to understand though, that voting for that option is no guarantee that they'll get it. Not unless the Westminster party which is going to win the 2015 general election is prepared to guarantee it in advance. Do you even know who is going to win the 2015 general election?

    But what do you do about the tactical voting? And my nervous breakdown in the polling booth? I don't think there's any option but to have a two-stage question. And I don't see why it should be either complicated or confusing. You're only complicating it by offering the micro-managed choice between different levels of devolution.

    I agree, this is our independence referendum. That should be the first and principle question. Format it however is decided. Do you agree that Scotland should become an independent country. Yes or no. Fine. It was after that that Joyce went wrong. She said that those who didn't vote for independence should then get a choice of whether or not to go for devo-max. Hey, what about us, guys? Are those who support independence not allowed a say in whether or not we can have devo-max?

    .... contd ....

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  2. .... contd ....

    This is the crux of the issue. If only those who don't support independence get to vote on the devo-max issue, there is a danger that devo-max would lose, even if it was the most popular option. Suppose 45% voted for independence, but these people couldn't then vote again. You could, conceivably, then have the remainder split 30% for the status quo and 25% for devo-max. Who wins? Not independence, if it didn't get 50%. Not devo-max, because the status quo beat it. This ignores the fact that virtually all the independence supporters would back devo-max against the status quo, but Joyce said we wouldn't be allowed to vote.

    That won't do.

    The opposite concept is equally open to misrepresentation. Willie Rennie is an idiot. He says, suppose 51% vote for independence, but then 95% vote for devo-max, surely devo-max has won? How can it not win if it has more support than independence? Is the man really that stupid? He's effectively trying to claim that he can add the first-choice votes of the devo-max supporters to the second-choice votes of the independence supporters and claim victory, even if more than half the population are first-choice independence supporters. Effectively, so long as the total of people whose first choice is independence is smaller than the total of people whose first choice is independence plus the people whose first choice is devo-max, independence can't win, by his way of it.

    That won't do either. You'd have independence supporters voting tactically against devo-max, which would be crazy.

    Of course it will do, so long as it's made clear what's going on. Which, admittedly, the SNP's 2010 consultation document didn't. Unionists want a second referendum if we lose the independence one. So they say. But we have to take it on trust. Vote no, and trust we'll give you another referendum, and trust that what's on offer will be utopia - you'll see!

    If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

    What we have to insist on is that those who are making this promise put their money where their mouth is. None of this, let's get this independence thing out of the way, then pie in the sky, pig in a poke and jam tomorrow. Get your act together, put your offer on the table, and RUN BOTH REFERENDUMS SIMULTANEOUSLY. That is the only way to ensure that those who are being persuaded to turn down the chance of independence know what they're voting for.

    It's exactly as many people have proposed. First question, do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country.

    Second question, IF THE FIRST QUESTION DOES NOT ATTRACT A MAJORITY OF THE POPULAR VOTE, do you agree that [insert proposals for devo-max here].

    Get people (and Wille Rennie) to understand that they are getting their two referendums in one. The second question only comes into play of the first loses. And for God's sake get him to stop with the double-counting.

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  4. Thanks for that extended view, Rolfe, and it is vital that such views are put forward.

    I don't agree with your position, however. Although some in my party - SNP - might be horrified at me saying this, I think allowing nationalists a second bite at the cherry if they don't get independence is unfair to those who are opposed to independence. That's why I posed four discrete questions, with only one answer allowed, or ballot paper void.

    In my view, the devo max question is only for those who are firmly against full independence, and their vote should not be diluted or split in significance by nationalists being allowed to vote for devo max. Independence delivers devo max.

    On my ballot paper, the Willie Rennie version - or anything like it - simply could not occur. If 51 out of 100 people vote for independence, there are only 49 left to vote for the other options on my approach.

    I believe the devo max option to be a trap for nationalists, because a vote for devo max simply would not have the same consultative and constitutional force - clout, if you like - as a vote for independence, and since it leaves sovereignty with Westminster, could be simply ignored or delayed.

    But allowing a devo max option, on whatever complex transferrable option mechanism, is a trap also for unionists, for both those who do not want any change to status quo, and for those who want devo max but to stay in the UK, because it give nationalists in effect two votes and a fallback, and inflates the apparent devo max support.

    I want to win independence, but not at the price of alienating and potentially dangerously dividing the Scottish electorate and the Scottish people. We only have to look at the history of the island of Ireland for the last 90 years to appreciate that danger.

    If 51% of an electorate vote for a settlement that is anathemea to 49%, especially if the process is contested, is technically a valid outcome, but one that is politically and socially a powder keg, whichever way round the outcome. (Watch Neil Jordan's film 'Michael Collins')

    Democrat first, nationalist second is my position, painful though it often is.

    regards,

    Peter

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    1. I tend to agree that tactically, I would prefer not to see devo-max on the ballot paper. I think it might kill our best hopes of getting a straight majority for independence. I think there are two reasons to think about it though.

      One is the simple question of democracy. If this is a very popular option, is it not an abrogation of democracy to deny voters that choice? The other point is more practical. If there is no third option on the ballot paper, the unionist campaign is going to consist of, just vote no, then we'll reveal the wonderful devolution settlement we'll offer you, afterwards. Many people might fall for this - we believe things we want to believe.

      I think it would be very difficult for the SNP to add some vague, unspecified devo-max option to the ballot, though. The SNP can deliver independence, through Holyrood. All it needs is the mandate from the voters. It cannot deliver devo-max, all it can do is offer to try to negotiate this with Westminster. Can you spell "doomed to failure"? Is it fair to include this undeliverable chimera alongside independence, which it can deliver?

      Thus I believe Salmond has stated that he is open to an amendment being proposed by the unionist parties to include a third option on the ballot paper. I think he is right to approach it this way. This puts the onus on the parties supporting that option to formulate the details of what they are offering, and to undertake to legislate for it in Westminster. (Always assuming they are in a position to do this after 2015, that is!) I do not think this will happen.

      I cannot imagine that any Westminster government would ever be prepared to legislate for Scotland having complete domestic control over everything except defence and foreign affairs. It's inconceivable, and I simply don't understand those who think it's a possibility. In the unlikely event of this happening, then it would indeed guarantee independence within ten years anyway. So perhaps the SNP wouldn't mind if that actually happened. It won't though.

      The other possibility is that "civic Scotland" might cobble together something with Labour to get a watered-down version on the ballot paper. Given the way "control of everything but defence and foreign affairs" has become the expectation for devo-max, there is a real possibility that this eventuality would push quite a lot of people towards independence.

      But really, it's not going to happen. Salmond isn't going to put "pie in the sky" on the ballot, and the unionist parties aren't going to come up with a concrete amendment. We're just going to have to fight off the promised of jam tomorrow as best we can.

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  5. Sorry I got your emails the wrong way round, Rolfe, but I think the thrust of your argument is still understandable.

    regards,

    Peter

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  6. Rolfe,

    You say "If this is a very popular option, is it not an abrogation of democracy to deny voters that choice?" Well, yes - that's exactly what I've said in my blog.

    "I think it would be very difficult for the SNP to add some vague, unspecified devo-max option to the ballot, though." There's nothing in the least vague about devo max, despite the nonsense being talked about it being undefined. It means everything except defence and foreign policy - everything means EVERYTHING - every aspect of government.

    Sometimes I think unionists want the SNP to set set out in a ballot paper everything that government does. It wouldn't be a paper, it would be several volumes, and it would certainly be impossible to vote on.

    "It cannot deliver devo-max, all it can do is offer to try to negotiate this with Westminster. Can you spell "doomed to failure"? Is it fair to include this undeliverable chimera alongside independence, which it can deliver?"

    The same is technically true of independence, but as I said in the blog, a YES vote for independence has infinitely more weight and clout than a YES vote to devo max, and I have already said what I believe a possible outcome to that would be. In fact, I agree with your comment.

    But is it fair? Well, it is certainly NOT fair to the substantial proportion of the elctorate who manifestly want it NOT to have it on the ballot paper, unless we want to treat an informed electorate like children and tell them we know best.

    As far the rest of your comments, my view is that Alex Salmond has committed himself publicly on numerous occasions to saying that, while he wants independence and one question, as a democrat and First Minister for ALL of the Scottish electorate, he will respect their views if there is clear evidence that they want such an option.

    How the devo max question might be framed is entirely another matter. Bodies like Civic Scotland must be listened to becasue they are an important part of the consultation process, but they no more have a democratic mandate than the CBI has - and we know what happended to that risible claim.

    Thanks again for posting, Rolfe. Try if posible in any future posting not to repeat points on which we are already agreed, or points of difference where we have nothing new to add to the argument.

    We don't want to wind it in an endless loop!

    regards,

    Peter

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    1. I had another post ready to send, but I'll refrain. I think your four-way FPTP suggestion is completely unworkable for several reasons. However, as you don't seem to want to continue the discussion, I'll leave you to the certainty of your own rectitude.

      I may continue the discussion over at referendumdabate.com, if the conversation there continues.

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  8. I'm happy to have discussions, Rolfe, but not to go round in circles. I've given you space in two of the longest posts I've ever had on my blogs, and responded to your points at some length, I thought reasonably and courteously. We clearly have key points of disagreement, and that's fine with me.

    Perhaps if you you need this kind of space, you should consider a blog of your own, or offer yourself as a guest contributor to say, newsnetscotland. Comments on blogs tend to be briefer than yours, in the main.

    In view of your latest tone, I think it best if you don't post here again. I'll leave others to judge the balance of the exchanges.

    Thanks for posting. Good luck on referendumdebate.com. I've already posted there myself. Be sure to read their guidelines on the wording of comments.

    regards,

    Peter

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  9. Peter, I normally agree with your opinions and observations but this four-way referendum idea of yours is barking!

    How will you decide which option wins? Let's say the results are independence 30%, devo max 25%, devo min 25%, status quo 20%. Independence gets the most votes of any single option, but the union gets 70% of the votes. Devo max plus independence gets over 50%, but so does devo min plus independence, so what does that tell us? Only that people want some change but they have no idea how much. If your poll was run with your rules, Westminster would (justifiably) reject the outcome and leave things as they are.

    Here's a simpler solution with no ambiguity; question 1, do you want the Scottish Parliament to have increased powers? Question 2, Do you want Scotland to become independent?

    If question 1 gets a majority answering no it means the status quo has won. If question 1 gets a majority answering yes that is a mandate for increasing the powers of the parliament. Question 2 then becomes the decider between devo max and independence.

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    1. Since my second thought is often more copnsidered than my first, holebender, let me acknowledge that the outcome you describe would fall a long way short of ideal, in terms of the vitally necessary subsequent acceptance of the result by those whose option failed.

      I hope such a result would not occur, and given the polls, I would not expect it to occur.

      But similar questions arise with all other options.

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  11. Not the best way to enter a discussion by describing a viewoint you disagree with as 'barking', Holebender - but nonetheless -

    My ballot paper exactly reflects our first-past-the-post electoral system for general elections - highest vote wins. What you appear to be arguing for is some form of proportional representation - in a referendum?

    I know of no referendum on independence that has been conducted on a proportional representation basis - how could there be, since, unlike a parliamentary election, there aren't multiple seats to be filled.

    The single YES/NO question settles the matter in exactly the same way, the difference being that the Yes voters voted for only one option, but the No voters are lumped together, with no opportunity to vote for their different motivations.

    Your method still doesn't allow the range of preference to be expressed that mine does. But I'm too polite to describe it as barking - just as a different view to mine.

    regards,

    Peter

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  12. Peter, cite one actual independence referendum which has not been a single yes/no question.

    I apologise for calling your idea "barking", but I still think it's daft. By having four options and insisting that everyone can only vote for one you are making it very probably that no option will achieve an overall majority, and only a majority will do for something as fundamental as independence. Anything short of a majority for independence will be (and will be interpreted as) a majority for the union. I don't think you have really thought through the consequences of your proposal.

    If enhanced powers are to be included in the referendum it must be done in such a way that each question is a binary choice and must therefore produce a definitive result. This means the extra powers question must be made conditional. e.g. Q1 independence yes/no? Q2 IF Q1 result = no, more powers yes/no? I think 3 options are as many as anyone can handle so your fourth devo-min option has to go.

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    1. I can't cite one, Holebender, although that's not to say there hasn't been one. The same applies to proportional voting - I don't know of any, but my research is shallow.

      We're faced with the fact that this referendum is different, whether we like it or not.

      I find it mildly insulting to be told that I haven't thought through the implications of my proposal. To my knowledge, I have written in public - in total - as much about the referendum and voting system as anyone, and perhaps more. (Psephologists and government advisors have doubtless written reams).

      Let me reiterate - I want independence, I don't want devo max, and as an independence supporter I don't want a second question. But as a democrat, I must respect other views of Scotland's future, and what I don't want above all is a contested referendum outcome.

      But your example in your first post - the 30% for independence one - has given me food for further thought, and I'll go over it all yet again, and try to blog further on it.

      Thanks for posting.

      regards,

      Peter

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